Sunday, January 11, 2009

More information about the mikvaos issue

QUESTIONS:

Why are many women being told not to use the mikva on Dolev and Lachish during the week?
Why is it that women are told they may use the mikva on Lachish on Friday nights, but on condition that they use the upstairs mikva?
Why do we need a new mehadrin mikva on Luz at a cost of a million dollars?

WRONG ANSWERS:
1) There is a halachic problem with the mikvaos on Lachish and Dolev.
2) The mikvaos themselves are fine, but the procedures and checking standards of the mikva ladies do not conform to halacha.
3) The mikvaos are fine, the mikva ladies follow correct procedures, but they are not frum enough.
4) The rabanim in charge are not reliable.
5) There is a shortage of preparation rooms in RBS and the community needs a new mikva.

THE REAL ANSWERS:

1) In fact the mikvaos are fine, and there are no halachic compromises or problems at all with Dolev or Lachish. The obvious PROOF is that Lachish is used now on Friday night, and Dolev will soon be handed over to be run as a private mehadrin mikva, with no changes to the physical structure at all.

2) The standard of “checking” used by the mikva ladies in RBS are exactly the same as what is done worldwide. This has been confirmed by women and mikva ladies who have been contacted in the following communities: Bnei Brak, Har Nof, Lakewood, Boro Park (Klausenberg, also used by Bobov and Satmer), Flatbush, Passaic etc. All report that checking is done EXACTLY as it's done at Lachish and Dolev. (For the purposes of this discussion, "normal" checking refers to looking at a woman's hands including nails, feet including nails, checking for stray hairs that may be on her back where she cannot see them, and asking her if she remembered to do the various things found on any standard mikva checklist.) The only difference between the other mikvaos and the ones in RBS, is that on Friday night at Lachish and Dolev women are checked as usual, while in most of the American mikvaos all checking is omitted completely on Friday night. Even though the way that women are checked on Lachish and Dolev is how generations of women were checked in Europe and America (see Tehilla Abramov's book with the haskama of Rav Elyashiv), there are some rabbanim insisting on a brand-new method which is known as "mehadrin checking." Mehadrin checking is absolutely unheard of in any of the above mentioned communities. Despite all this, the Rav Hamachshir has expressed his willingness to train mikva ladies to provide mehadrin checking to women requesting it, but the rabbonim have repeatedly rebuffed his attempts to meet in order to discuss this.

3) The mikva ladies are very medakdek, frum women but they are not affiliated with "Gimmel." Unfortunately, this seems to be the true reason that we can’t join together and have one mikva. As bizarre as this sounds, some local Charedi people have indicated that they don’t feel comfortable using a mikva with a “mizrachi” mikva lady, no matter what procedures she is trained to use. By any definition, this is base sinas chinam.

4) Here in Beit Shemesh we are lucky to have a very Chashuve rav who works for the Moatza and runs the mikvaos on a very high standard, with many chumros. He is a true “oisek betzurchei tzibur” and big talmid chacham, but not a "Gimmel person." As mentioned, there is no disagreement about the kashrus of the mikvaos themselves, so that is not the issue. The issue is POLITICS. Now that elections are over, the same rabanim who refused to meet with the Rav Hamachshir have determined that they have the power to take over at least one mikva (Dolev). It’s well known that in Poland and Hungary, before the war, when an outsider wanted to wrest control away from the community Rav, a favorite trick was to start a rumor that the mikva in town wasn’t kosher. Then all the women in town started telling their friends, “I heard the mikva’s not kosher…” leading people to question their Rav and letting a new person gain power. It seems RBS is no different.

5) At the present time, there is no shortage of mikva preparation rooms in RBS. Currently there are on average thirty women using the mikvaos each night in RBS-A. There are twenty rooms currently available. Even if the number of people doubled it would still be perfectly fine. True, there are women who during the week use the mikva is in RBS-B due to the “issues” mentioned above. However, there has been no possibility to assess the need for more than the 10 rooms that will soon be given to them on Dolev. It's hard to say how anyone could say with certainty that more rooms space is needed, or wanted, until they first have control of the Dolev mikva with ten rooms and see how many women show up. Additionally, whose decision is it what the proportion of “standard” and “mehadrin” mikva rooms should be? Women, who themselves are involved in this new mikva project, are mostly unaware that the new mikva will not even offer the option of normal yeshivish/chasidish standard procedures.

A final thought: On Friday night, women currently avoid using the lower floor of the mikva on Lachish, because they tell each other "it's not mehadrin." There is no difference whatsoever in the mikva itself. It's just that a chareidi lady is working upstairs. Please keep in mind that on Friday night to not trust a mikva lady seems like nothing less than sinas chinam. Women seem oblivious to the fact that they are being mevayesh b'rabim the very frum aidel woman as she vainly says there are rooms available downstairs, and everyone ignores her. All the women in the waiting room understand the subtexts that are left unsaid. It's as if they are saying to her, "Sorry, we don't trust you and suspect you may say kosher when we're not." How hurtful. Is she not also a human being that deserves to have a chezkas kashrus. In halacha, any woman is acceptable, so is she less reliable than an untrained woman? For those who believe that they think the upstairs mikva is better than the downstairs one, how do they explain the “boycott” of that mikva during the week.
Women who DO use the Lachish mikva during the week should know that the same rabbanim who say to only use the upstairs on Friday night, also say not to go to Lachish at all during the week. Some women who don't go downstairs on Friday night, say that they go to the regular mikvaos in other parts of Bet Shemesh during the week. This makes no sense. The rabbanim who are behind not using the downstairs on Friday nights, do not currently recommend using ANY mikva except the one in RBS-B that is mehadrin.

Let's all turn to our rabanim to ask that we have community mikvaos that are for everyone. A community that can't share a mikva has a long way to go before it can claim to have any achdus.

13 comments:

  1. I don't believe this whole story. Rabanim don't trick people. EVER. End of story. Obviously there's a perfectly good explanation. Anyone out there able to get ask one of the rabanim involved to respond to all this?

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  2. To Anonymous
    You are sooooooooo naive. Ever hear of POLITICS? How could anyone make all this stuff up?

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  3. I don't get it-which rav is currently in charge of the mikva on Lachish and Dolev? Rav Soleveitchik?

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  4. Many women don't use the lower floor of the mikva on Lachish because it's not as nice, by the way - truly, the rooms upstairs are nicer and have much, much better mirrors which are a necessary part of proper iyun. Just a note.

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  5. To anonymous:
    Huh? The rooms downstairs are much newer and nicer than the ones upstairs. Have you ever been down there or is this yet another RBS urban rumor?

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  6. Rav Spector is in charge of all the mikvaos of Bet Shemesh, RBS included.

    BTW, I would like to add that I heard two rumors recently about this:
    1. that Rav Spector was "manhandled by local rabbonim about giving up his authority to the mikva on Dolev and passing control on to them.
    2. That Moshe Abutbol "fired" rav Spector from the responsibility of the mikvaos.

    I asked someone close with Rav Spector to confirm or deny these rumors. He came back to me and told me that Rav Spector categorically denied that he was fired or removed from being responsible for the mikvas and he is still in charge.

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  7. Correct, he is in charge of all of them-currently that is. Soon Dolev will be transferred to Rav Perlstien, right now Rav Spector is still in charge. He has not ben fired, but the rumors to that effect stem from the fact that an attempt was made after the elections to take away his position. Due to the need to form a coalition, he was allowed to retain his position but had to agree to transfer Dolev to Rav Perlstien, which will happen in the coming months. Tell your contact to ask him if he is ceding control of Dolev or not. Thank you Rafi for your post and link on your blog!

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  8. as a woman in RBS who uses the dolev mikva (and in fact as I am a recent olah I am not even sure where any others are! When I found out unexpectedly that the dolev one was closed I entered panic mode as I did not know where to turn!) practically, what sort of changes are we talking about?

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  9. My understanding is that there was a mikve deal struck as part of the Bet Shemesh Moetzet HaIr coalition agreement.
    Stage One: Rav Specter takes over Lachish, entirely.
    Simultaneously
    Stage Two: Rav Perlstein takes over Dolev entirely.
    Stage Three: Build new mikve (I think on Luz).
    When finished...
    Stage Four: Rav Persltein vacates Dolev
    Stage Five: Rav Perlstein takes over new mikve (Luz).
    Stage Six: Rav Specter vacates Lachish.
    Stage Seven: Rav Specter takes over Dolev.

    It sounds more like a dance routine.
    Or a trainer planning the big match.

    End result:
    R.Perlstein Two.
    R.Specter One.


    I'm not sure about all the details, and will be happy to be corrected by anyone who's actually seen the coalition agreement, but the interesting part of the 'dance' (IMHO) will be when R.Perlstein is required to give up Dolev.

    By the way, whoever thinks that mikves/rabbonim have nothing to do with politics is simply factually wrong. It was an instrinsic part of the Moetzet HaIr political coalition agreement.

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  10. I hope you posted this after talking to RMG, REK and/or RSZP. If not, how are you so sure that your reasons are correct?

    Maybe they know why a certain mikva lady can not be trusted.

    My wife has told me again and again that the mikva ladies in BET are much much more machmir than anywhere she has ever been in her life

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  11. Anonymous: What specifically are we saying that you think is not true? Hve you spoken to these rabanim? If you're sure we're wrong please call them and let us know what they say. As far as what you wrote about the mikva ladies in bet being "much much more machmir"- you have just helped prove my point. New chumros have been instituted that are way more machmir than any other mikvaos in the world including ultra chasidish and ultra yeshivish (Lakewood). The question is WHY? Who is behind this initiative? Why didn't any previous gedolim mention this? And lastly, is it right that the men in RBS are all allowing this to be the standard in RBS mikvaos without checking if it's halachically appropriate or if it reflects what the women feel is the right thing to do? R' Elyashiv gave his haskama to Tehila Abramoff's book- read it- there is no mention of new takanos.

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  12. I am not sure why you are getting so worked up about this. Of course it is politics - the charedim have taken over the Moatza and now they want to exert their power in taking over certain of the roles that were previously held by the D'Lim? If the charedim would have been here first and the D'Lim would have taken over you can bet that the situation would be reversed. Welcome to Israel.

    Why do you care if certain Rabbonim say that you can/can't use certain Mikvaot? If you don't like what your Rav is saying find yourself a different Rav.

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  13. Anon- there are no Mikvaos under the DL community, only under the Rabbanut.

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